Some people spent the pandemic learning how to bake sourdough. RZA, founder of the seminal rap group the Wu-Tang Clan, wrote his first classical composition, A Ballet Through Mud. The Colorado Symphony conducted by Christopher Dragon premiered the work last year, with dancers from the California Institute of the Arts performing choreography by Yusha-Marie Sorzano; the performance was preceded by a live re-scoring of the 1978 kung fu film The 36th Chamber of Shaolin, with RZA at the turntables. The Colorado Symphony’s recording of A Ballet Through Mud has now been released on the boutique label Platoon.
For RZA, born Robert Fitzgerald Diggs and raised in public housing in the Brownsville neighborhood of Brooklyn and Staten Island, his journey into classical music has been entirely self-directed, through the byways of sampling, remixing and eventually, film scoring.
This wasn’t RZA’s first collaboration with an orchestra. In 2020, the Wu-Tang Clan performed their debut album Enter the Wu-Tang (36 Chambers) with the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Enrico Lopez-Yañez. The following year the group took the show to Red Rocks Amphitheatre, performing with the Colorado Symphony under Dragon. And they’re not the only rappers crossing over. Common has performed with the Houston Symphony, Sir Mix-a-Lot with Seattle. (See Symphony magazine’s Fall 2014 cover story about Sir Mix-a-Lot and other rappers with orchestras). The National Symphony Orchestra, under the baton of Principal Pops Conductor Steven Reineke, has backed both Nas, performing his seminal album Illmatic, and future Pulitzer-winner Kendrick Lamar, performing selections from his much-lauded To Pimp a Butterfly. Concerts like these bring in both graying Gen Xers—because a Pops concert no longer means Arthur Fiedler conducting Sousa marches—and young people who’ve never set foot in a concert hall before. But A Ballet Through Mud is a first: a narrative ballet, set to a new score composed by RZA.
Ann Lewinson: How did this collaboration happen?
RZA: I had a chance to work with the Colorado Symphony at Red Rocks. I had to get a lot of the Wu-Tang Clan music orchestrated. We sold a lot of tickets. And I became friends with [Chief Artistic Officer] Tony Pierce and Christopher Dragon and Dustin [Knock, Manager of Artistic Operations]. They were in my Rolodex. And when the time came for me to do this project, I called Chris.
Lewinson: How did you come up with the idea for this piece?
RZA: The idea came from a bunch of lyrics in an old notebook I found during the pandemic. Reading through my youthful thoughts from the age of 14 to 19—your first kiss or your first this or your first that—I decided to put music to it. But I eventually got rid of the lyrics and let the music do the talking.
Lewinson: Was it hard to let go like that?
RZA: Yes. Difficult. Fortunately, I have a wife that gives me all the support, and I asked her over and over, should I perform lyrics over this? At that moment in time of the pandemic, I’m deep into studies. I have Rimsky-Korsakov’s book, the Principles of Orchestration; I’m deep into Mozart and Beethoven; Debussy, of course. I discover Liszt, who I didn’t know, and the whole atonal idea. And maybe six to eight tracks in, we’re allowed to travel again. I’m on a plane, and I push “yes” to watch the Alvin Ailey documentary. And everything clicks: I can tell the story through dance.
With RZA at the turntables, the Colorado Symphony and conductor Christopher Dragon performed a re-scoring of the 1978 film The 36th Chamber of Shaolin at Boettcher Concert Hall in February 2023. Photo by Amanda Tipton.
Lewinson: How did you find your choreographer?
RZA: Yusha is from the Alvin Ailey School. I wanted someone from that school. She had one demo that had one guy mixing in Tai Chi. And I always wanted to mix those worlds together.
The original intention was to share it as an album, but it evolved into everything it became. And then it went back to an album, for a listener to follow the story, but also, which I hope happens, create your own story.
The Colorado Symphony’s performance of RZA’s A Ballet Through Mud featured dancers from the California Institute of the Arts in choreography by Yusha-Marie Sorzano. Photo by Amanda Tipton.
Lewinson: So what is the story?
RZA: The story uses the musical modes as characters: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian. I’ve defined these modes as college freshmen. Ionian is the major scale, but its relative minor is Aeolian. Ionian, she’s never had an elixir, let’s call it, in her body. And then she gets an elixir in her body. She’s been friends with Locrian since high school, but their friendship has always been platonic. They experiment, but the experiment leaves more questions. And so Ionian becomes Aeolian. She becomes minor because she’s confused about her emotions. And the story is, “Can we get Aeolian to resolve back to that major scale?” And we do, towards the end. And after that, the lotus arrives.
Lewinson: The lotus is the Buddhist idea?
RZA: Yeah, because a lotus grows out of the mud, right? People think mud is filthy—but look at this pure flower that grows out of it. I’m a student of Shaolin Temple and the story of Bodhidharma and his travels from India to China is touched upon in this music. But I think it’s a universal idea. Someone like myself who was considered hip hop, from the slums of Shaolin, how did I evolve to appreciate the classical masters, the power of the writing symphonies and ballets and concertos? I am the lotus that grew out of the mud, and now I’m offering something back to music.
Lewinson: Growing up, were you exposed to classical music?
RZA: Nope. As a record collector, I had classical albums, which I sought out for samples. If you go back and check some of Wu-Tang’s samples, you’ll hear that I was sampling from great classic works.
RZA, in foreground, with Wu-Tang Clan. “If you go back and check some of Wu-Tang’s samples, you’ll hear that I was sampling from great classic works,” he says. Photo by Kyle Christy.
Lewinson: There’s also a track with a memorable violin solo.
RZA: Yeah, on Wu-Tang Forever, there’s a song called “Reunited.” She [former Virginia Symphony Orchestra violinist Karen Briggs] was part of Yanni’s orchestra, actually. Do you remember Yanni?
Lewinson: Yanni the new-age musician?
RZA: She was the only person that he would give a solo to, ’cause he don’t give out a lot of solos. Her daughter was dating one of the Wu-Tang brothers and they brought her to the studio. I’m like, “Can you do this?” I’d hum a couple of lines. I can now sit at the piano and do it. And then I can harmonize and pass it to another instrument.
Lewinson: When did you start learning how to read music?
RZA: I will honestly say I probably read music at a seventh-grade level, maybe eighth grade at best. I picked up my first music theory around 1997, but I actually got more into the concepts when I got my first job to compose music, for the film Ghost Dog. It was Peter and the Wolf that was my first primary teacher: the use of the instruments as characters. And then as I got successful at film scoring, I got to understand evolving the theme and writing things for different characters.
Lewinson: As a kid, you were watching Kung Fu movies with orchestral scores. That must have seeped in.
RZA: Yes, but you got to go Star Wars. You got to go Bill Conti and Rocky. You got to go to Morricone, Nino Rota, The Godfather theme. You got to go to Isaac Hayes and Curtis Mayfield and Quincy Jones.
Lewinson: In your book The Tao of Wu, you write that digital culture is “a step away from the truth.” I’m wondering if part of the impetus in working with symphonic instruments is writing for sounds that are made physically.
RZA: Well, the answer to that is yes. MIDI files don’t compare to the real thing. It’s the human interaction and the heart, mind, body, soul, sweat, air, energy, vibrations, sound waves, particles—all these things moving at once and being captured at once. Every violin player, they’re playing the notes as written, but every arm is moving to his own strength. And it’s that little bit of difference that can’t be emulated that makes every orchestra sound the way they sound, every recording sound the way it sounds, and that’s something special.
One of the goals of this work is to inspire people of all ages, but especially young people, to pick up an instrument and find their self-expression, and add to the culture.
“One of the goals of this work is to inspire people of all ages, but especially young people, to pick up an instrument and find their self-expression, and add to the culture,” says RZA. Photo by Danny Hastings.
Lewinson: Can we expect more compositions like this from you?
RZA: There’s one that I started writing. I haven’t decided the total direction. I’m having fun with it. There’s one piece in it called “Talani’s Smile” because my wife loved the progression of the chords. She said, “Oh, that made me feel good. What is that?”
Lewinson: Are you writing this on spec?
RZA: Yeah. In my career I got to a point where I wouldn’t do it unless they paid me. I got caught up in the luxury and I suffered for it personally, and I think my art suffered. And so it’s like, “Nah, the music is free.”
Lewinson: But if the New York Philharmonic calls you tomorrow and commissions you to write a piece for them—
RZA: Yo, I would do it, but I’m not going to wait for them to call.
Lewinson: Are other orchestras programming A Ballet Through Mud?
RZA: No, but that’s the goal. I would love to see high schools and colleges play it. I would love to see people learn the dance as well. I would love to see this performed without me being there. I think it’s a beautiful piece of art that can have a life of its own. But I dream the best for my children, you know what I mean?
